日期：2001年05月10日
地點：印度 達蘭沙拉 上密院
媒體：時代雜誌（亞洲版）
記者：邁可法德士(Michael Fathers)

十六歲的鄔金欽列多傑(在他十五個月出離西藏之前是西藏宗教界最高的領導者)，到印度會合尊貴的達賴喇嘛之後第一 次公開講話。他是大家熟知的第十七世噶瑪巴──可能是尊貴的達賴喇嘛的繼承人。4月27日這位年輕人在記者會中展現了他的人格特質。兩天之後，他和時代雜 誌南亞總負責人邁可法德士(Michael Fathers)暢談他的成長，對父母的思念，以及對繪畫、音樂的熱愛。摘要如下：
Sixteen-year-old Ugyen Trinley Dorje, the most senior religious leader in Tibet until he fled the country 15 months ago, has spoken for the first time since he joined the Dalai Lama in exile in India. Better known as the 17th incarnation of the Karmapa — and a possible successor to the Dalai Lama — the teenager’s press conference on April 27 lifted the veil on his personality. Two days later, he sat down with TIME’s South Asia bureau chief Michael Fathers and discussed growing up, missing his parents and his love of painting and music. Edited excerpts:

問：你打算什麼時候回西藏？
When do you expect to return to Tibet?

法王：我以難民的身份來到了印度，不打算回去西藏，除非尊貴的達賴喇嘛回去。我會和他一起回去。
Having come to India as a refugee, I don’t plan to return to Tibet until the Dalai Lama returns. I will go back with him.

問：中國政府說你離開寺院去印度是為了取回代表噶瑪巴的黑寶冠和法器，他們說這是你留下的信中所說的。
The government of China says you left your monastery to go to India to reclaim the Karmapa’s symbolic black hat and other religious possessions. They said your reasons were contained in a letter you left behind.

法王：我是留下了一封信，我很清楚知道內容是什麼，是我自已寫的。信中我說我離開的理由是長時間以來，我堅持並重復的請求准許我在印度的老師們來到我身邊，但被拒絕了。信中完全沒有提及黑寶冠的事，把它帶回中國去做什麼呢？戴在江澤民的頭上？
It is true that I left behind a letter. I am perfectly aware what was in it as I wrote it myself. I said in it that I was leaving because for a long time I had persistently and repeatedly asked permission for my teachers in India to come to me. But this was refused. There was no mention at all in the letter of the black hat. What would be the purpose of taking it back to China — to put it on Jiang Zemin’s head?

問：你有沒有想和達賴喇嘛一起工作推動西藏獨立？
Do you want to work with the Dalai Lama for an independent Tibet?

法王：西藏出名是因為它的宗教傳統和文化。因此我的責任是盡我一切的力量來支持宗教和文化。我如此做，我會給西藏人民和西藏的處境帶來利益。我相信我會盡一切力量協助尊貴的達賴喇嘛。
What makes Tibet famous is its religious traditions and culture. So my responsibility is to support the religion and culture as vigorously as I can. By doing this I will benefit the people of Tibet and the overall situation of Tibet. And I believe I will be supporting the Dalai Lama as much as I can.

問：在中國的統治下你擔不擔心西藏文化會消失？
Are you worried that Tibetan culture is dying under Chinese rule?

法王：我對政治不熟悉。每一個國家都有它獨特的精神和文化傳統。如果情況發生，文化有被消滅的危險，我希望這種事永不會發生在西藏。
I am not particularly learned in the political sphere. But each and every nation has its own distinct spiritual and cultural tradition. And if there ever arises a situation where a culture could become extinct I hope and pray that it never happens to Tibet.

問：有人說中國政府在等達賴喇嘛去世，希望那時西藏獨立運動也就中止。他們就可以把西藏文化吸收到漢文化中？
It is said that the Chinese are waiting for the Dalai Lama to die in the hope that the Tibetan independence movement dies with him. Where do you stand on this issue?

法王：達賴喇嘛沒那麼老（他65歲），身體也很好。我經常祈請他長壽，我有信心他會和我們在一起很久。在這個期間中國的政治情勢可能會改變。至於對西藏的青年來說，我鼓勵他們專注於保護西藏精神和文化的傳統。
The Dalai Lama is not that old (he is 65), and he is also very healthy. I pray constantly for his longevity and I am confident he will be with us for a long time. During that period there may be political changes in China. As far as the youth of Tibet are concerned, I would urge them to concentrate on the preservation of the cultural and spiritual traditions of Tibet.

問：你希望西藏未來怎樣的？
What sort of future would you like to see for Tibet?

法王：我希望看見非暴力的西藏，我們的精神和傳統價值受到尊重。我最大的心願是西藏和它的人民生活在和平的環境中。
I’d like to see a non-violent Tibet where our spiritual and traditional values are respected. My great aspiration is that Tibet and its peoples will live in a state of peace.

問：中國想從你這裡得到些什麼？
What was China hoping to get from you?

法王：毫無 疑問，中國是有計劃 的利用我。我受到非常特別的待遇。不過我漸漸懷疑可能是一個計劃，想要利用我來分化西藏人民和達賴喇嘛。
There was no doubt in my mind that China was planning to use me. I was treated as something very special. But I came to suspect that there might have been a plan to use me to separate the people of Tibet from the Dalai Lama.

問：中國有沒有給你任何壓力去認證班禪喇嘛的轉世(他十一歲，現在在西藏是最高位的僧人)？
Were you pressed to recognize China’s candidate as the reincarnated Panchen Lama (who is aged 11, and is the highest-ranking cleric left in Tibet)?

法王：並沒有給我什麼特別的壓力去支持他。但是我被邀請去參加他的圓頂儀式和 受戒儀式。
There was no particular pressure placed on me to support him. But I was invited to his hair-cutting and ordination ceremony.

問：童年的生活是怎樣的？有沒有想到過你是高僧的轉世？
What was your childhood like? Did you have any sense of being a reincarnated high lama?

法王：我記得我父母對我非常尊重－我並沒有靠自已累積很多的經驗。五歲時進寺院，之後我非常專注的學習佛法，那時並沒有什麼特別的事讓我知道我的身份。
I can remember being treated with great respect by my parents – I didn’t really accumulate much experience on my own. At the age of five I entered a monastery, and after that I was intensely involved in the study and practice of Buddhism. There was nothing in particular that made me aware of my position.

問：到印度後，你最懷念什麼？
What do you miss most in India?

法王：我來印度的原因很重要……不過我常想到我的父母，我想念他們，我也擔心我那個地區的人民(東藏區)。
I came to India for very important reasons… Nonetheless I do think about my parents a lot and I miss them. I also worry about the people from my region (in eastern Tibet).

問：你在西藏時的生活和在印度有沒有不同？
Does your previous life in Tibet differ from your life in India?

法王：是有些不同，這很明顯。印度是一個不同的國家，有不同的法律和不同的風俗習慣。最大的不同處是，我感覺在西藏時心比較敏銳，而在印度時我的心較不清淅。我想可能是氣候的原因。
There are some differences, obviously. India is a different country with different laws and different customs. The main difference is that in Tibet I felt my mind was somewhat sharper. Here in India my mind is a little unclear. I think it might be the difference in climate.

問：你會不會擔心這事？
Does this worry you?

法王：有時候我對心念不夠清淅會覺得不舒服。但如果我到外頭走一會，就會有所改善。
Sometimes I feel uncomfortable about my lack of mental clarity. But if I go outside for a while, it helps.

問：你有沒有被困在這裡的感覺(他被限制在一個空的小寺院中)？
Do you feel constrained by your surroundings (he is confined to an empty monastery)?

法王：是有受到限制的感覺，不過印度政府決定給我政治庇護資格，並且允許我去佛聖地朝聖目前情況已有改善。如果依這個趨勢發展，我的願望即可以達 成。所以我把這裡當作暫時的地方。這裡是不怎麼方便；好像一個旅館，這裡到底不是屬於我的傳承（噶舉派）。（此寺院是西藏佛教尊貴的達賴喇嘛格魯派的密乘 學院－上密院。）
There is a sense of restriction living here, but it has been ameliorated by the Indian Government’s decision to give me refugee status and to allow me to go on a pilgrimage to the Buddhist holy places. If the trend in this direction continues, my wishes will be fully met. So I regard this as a temporary place. It is a little bit inconvenient; it is like being in a guesthouse. After all this is not a monastery of my own (Kagyupa) tradition. (The monastery is a “tantric university” of the Dalai Lama’s Gelupa tradition, or sect of Tibetan Buddhism.)

問：你最喜歡什麼活動？
What activities do you enjoy most?

法王：繪畫、詩和音樂──我對它們同樣的喜歡。我畫人物。我的畫沒有特別的象徵什麼，我只是描繪我當下所見的。
Painting, poetry and music — and I like them all equally. I paint people. My paintings don’t have any particular symbolism. I just draw and paint what comes to me.

問：這包不包括你的聖觀？
Does this include your visions?

法王：是的。
Yes

問：你有沒有學習非宗教性的主題？
Are you studying non-religious subjects?

法王：在印度沒有，但是在西藏有。我沒有讀政治或政治科學。不過我學了一點西藏歷史和數學；傳統西藏數學，它包括天文學和現代數學。我沒有再繼續學 數學，因為在一個階段之後，你不需要學那麼多，我不怎麼喜歡會計學，我也不喜歡數錢，有人替我做，所以我根本不用去試。
Not in India, but I did in Tibet. I did not study politics or political science. But I did study a bit of Tibetan history and mathematics; traditional Tibetan mathematics, which includes astrology and modern mathematics. I am not studying mathematics any more because beyond a certain point you don’t need that much. I don’t much like accounting. And I don’t much like counting money. Other people do it for me so I don’t even attempt it.

問：你是不是要扮演一個調適西藏傳統文化和宗教來適應現代需要的角色？

法王：兩方面都很重要，傳統的知識和方法是很珍貴的，同時，他們需要以適合現代人和對現代人有效的方式來表達，我們正在累積這方面的知識。不是選擇一個排除另外一個，而是需要結合它們，我是嚐試這工作的人之一。
Both strands are very important. Traditional knowledge and methods are very precious. At the same time they need to be presented in a way that fits or works with modern people, and the knowledge that we are accumulating now. Rather than selecting one to the exclusion of the other, we need to bring them together. I am one of many people seeking to do this.

問：你用不用電腦？
Do you use a computer?

法王：是的，我用。
Yes.

問：e-mail？
And e-mail?

法王：我不會用e-mail，我也沒有需要用e-mail。目前沒有網路連線，雖然我希望以後會有。
I don’t know how to use e-mail and I don’t yet have the need to use e-mail. I don’t have an (Internet) link, although I hope to eventually.

問：你對噶舉內部分裂和另一位噶瑪巴有沒有擔心？
Are the divisions in your sect and the presence of a rival Karmapa of concern to you?

法王：我是有一點擔心，因為它影響佛教的法教和佛教的法教的生存。但是我隨時都為每一個人的福祉祈願，不會刻意去區別哪些人是屬於我這邊的或其他的。
I am a little bit concerned because it does affect Buddhist teachings and the survival of Buddhist teachings. But I constantly pray for the welfare of everyone without thinking or making a distinction between those who are on my side and the rest.

問：夏瑪巴(一位噶舉高僧，他不承認這十六歲的喇嘛是真的噶瑪巴，並指派另一人為噶瑪巴)說你是中國派來的？
Sharmapa Rimpoche (a senior lama of the Kagyupa sect who has dismissed the 16-year-old lama as the real Karmapa and appointed his own) has called you an agent of the Chinese.

法王：直到現在，我一直盡心力以適當的方式來處理此事。我不想作任何憶測，那只會讓事更糟。
Up to this point I have done my best to deal with the situation in the appropriate way. I don’t want to speculate, as it will only worsen things.

問：你是不是真的噶瑪巴？
Are you the real Karmapa?

法王：噶瑪巴的認證不是經由公開選舉或 各團體的辯論而決定的。前一世噶瑪巴的預言是唯一作決定的根據。
The identity of the Karmapa is not decided by popular vote or debate. It is decided only by the prediction of the previous Karmapa.

問：你生命中最快樂的時光？
What has been the happiest moment of your life?

法王：大概是我的童年吧！當我還住在出身地的時候，因為那時我很自由，沒有一個大喇嘛的頭銜。和現在相比，我生活在此頭銜帶來的責任之中。雖然那是極大的加持和榮譽，但也受到 了一些限制。
It was probably my childhood, when I was still living in my birthplace, because at that time I was free and did not have the title of being a great lama. In contrast to now, I am living with the responsibility that comes with a title. It is a great blessing and a great honor, but it is somewhat restrictive.