时间：2018年12月25日
英翻中：Bamboo根据google翻译略做修改。

西藏精神领袖达赖喇嘛于2018年12月23日在菩提伽耶摩诃菩提寺接受印度斯坦时报访问。(Parwaz Khan/HT Photo)

On the outer periphery of Mahabodhi temple in Bodh Gaya in Bihar, a mere few hundred steps from the Bodhi tree under which Buddha attained enlightenment more than 2,000 years ago, the 14th Dalai Lama prays and meets his followers in a monastery behind an iron security curtain. Inside the temple, Trinley Thaye Dorje, the co-claimant along with Ogyen Trinley Dorje for the title of 17th Karmapa or head of Karma Kagyu school, is preaching to his followers from all over the world on Buddhism. The 17th Karmapa will become the key leader of Tibetan Buddhism in case the 14th Dalai Lama dies without reincarnation. The two religious leaders have no common ground because the Dalai Lama, like China, recognises Ogyen Dorje, who left India for the US in May 2017 and acquired citizenship of Dominica in March this year, as the real Karmapa.
在比哈尔邦的菩提伽耶的摩诃菩提寺的外围，距离佛陀在2000多年前获得启蒙证悟的菩提树仅几百步之遥，第十四世达赖喇嘛在铁栅栏后的寺院里会见他的追随者。在正觉塔内，泰耶多杰，这位和邬金钦列多杰共同声称是17世噶玛巴和噶玛噶举领袖，正在为来自世界各地的佛教徒讲道。第十七世噶玛巴将在第十四世达赖喇嘛圆寂后成为藏传佛教的重要领袖。但这两位宗教领袖没有共同点，因为达赖喇嘛和中国一样，只承认邬金钦列多杰是真正的噶玛巴，邬金钦列多杰于2017年5月离开印度前往美国，并于今年3月获得多米尼克公民身份。(Bamboo注：事实上，印度媒体从来只大量报道邬金钦列多杰，从来没理过泰耶多杰，除了他结婚、生孩子提了提。他们说噶玛巴的时候，都是理所当然指邬金钦列多杰。)

On Sunday morning after he discreetly meets a group of monks that has made its way from Tibet Autonomous Region of China, the frail looking but mentally alert 84-year-old spiritual leader of the Tibetan people talked exclusively to Shishir Gupta on wide-ranging political and spiritual issues. Edited excerpts:
星期天早上，在小心翼翼地会见了一群从中国西藏自治区出来的僧侣后，这位84岁的西藏民族精神领袖身体虚弱，精神警惕，专门与Shishir Gupta在政治和精神问题上进行了广泛的谈论。编辑摘录如下：

Quite Good… Not very good ….. for an 84-year-old person, quite good. I go for morning walks in Dharamshala also….Here I take around 600 steps each morning in the monastery.
相当不错......不是很好......对于一个84岁的人来说，是相当不错。我早上也在达兰萨拉散步......这里我每天早上在寺院里走600步。

One important lama (Kathok Getse Rinpoche, Head of Nyingma school) all of a sudden passed away. The conference had to be postponed as it was a period of mourning . It has nothing to do with 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje not getting a visa to visit India. I could not meet Thaye Dorje as he was not present when I went for pilgrimage to the Stupa.
一位重要的喇嘛（噶陀格则仁波切，宁玛派的掌教）突然圆寂了。会议不得不推迟，因为这是一个哀悼时期。这与第17世噶玛巴邬金钦列多杰无法获得印度签证无关。当我去正觉塔朝圣时，我没见到泰耶多杰，因为他不在场。

No I have not yet met Thaye Dorje. Recently, the two met in France. A rightful beginning. Shamar Rinpoche, nephew of 16th Karmapa Rangjung Rigpe Dorje who took refuge in Sikkim after 1959 uprising, told me that there were indications that Thaye Dorje was reincarnation of the previous Karmapa. In the meantime, Situ Rinpoche (the rival regent) appointed Ogyen Dorje as the Karmapa. I mentioned to Shamar that a high lama in 19th century had five reincarnations. It is possible for 16th Karmapa to have few reincarnations but the holder of the seat should be one. This is like the two Panchen Lamas with Gedhun Choekyi Nyima (proclaimed by Dalai Lama as reincarnation on May 14, 1995) still alive (other being Gyaltsen Norbu who was appointed by the Chinese government). But then some group told me that I should not be talking about the possibility of two or three reincarnations. I said, OK, then I will keep quiet.
不，我还没有见过泰耶多杰。最近，两人在法国相遇。一个好的开端。夏玛仁波切——1959年起义后在锡金避难的第16世噶玛巴让琼多杰的侄子，告诉我，有迹象表明泰耶多杰是前世噶玛巴的转世。与此同时，司徒仁波切（竞争对手）认证邬金钦列多杰为噶玛巴。我向夏玛提到，19世纪时，有一位高级喇嘛有五个转世。第16世噶玛巴或许会有几个转世，但法座的持有人却只能是一个。这就像有两个班禅喇嘛，一个是由达赖喇嘛1995年5月14日宣布为转世的Gedhun Choekyi Nyima（仍然活着），另一个是由中国政府任命的Gyaltsen Norbu。但后来有些团体告诉我，我不应该谈论两三个转世的可能性。我说，好的，接下来我会保持沉默。

Situ Rinpoche found a remarkable child (Ogyen Dorje) in Tibet. They came to see me and finalise that. Then I said yes to Ogyen as the reincarnation of the 16th Karmapa.
司徒仁波切在西藏发现了一个了不起的孩子（邬金多杰）。他们来请我最终确定，然后我说是的，邬金是第16世噶玛巴的转世。

No, no, no. That is not my business. I made it clear as early as in 1969 that it was up to the Tibetan people to decide whether the very institution of Dalai Lama should continue or not. They will decide. I have no concern. Since the 5th Dalai Lama, the (person holding the) title was the head of both temporal and spiritual affairs. Since 2001, I have proudly, voluntarily and happily given up the political role. We have already achieved elected political leadership (Centralized Tibetan Administration in Dharmshala) and they carry their full responsibility about our temporal affairs. I have totally retired since 2011. So my thinking is more liberal than Chinese thinking which is more orthodox.
不不不，那不是我的事。我早在1969年就明确表示，要由西藏人民来决定达赖喇嘛的制度是否应该继续下去。他们会决定，我不关心。自第五世达赖喇嘛以来，该头衔持有人是政治和精神上的领袖。但自2001年以来，我自豪地、自愿地、愉快地放弃了政治角色。我们已经取得了当选的政治领导（在达兰萨拉的西藏行政中央），他们对我们的行政事务负有全部责任。自2011年以来，我已经完全退休了，所以我的思想比正统的中国思想更开放。

It should be decided in a free country, not in Tibet, where there is no freedom.
它应该在一个自由的国家决定，而不是在没有自由的西藏。

No. Formally, not yet. As the Dalai Lama institution is close to Mongolia, Mongolian people should be involved. I think there should be an international Buddhist conference involving Himalayan people and other Buddhist countries to decide on this. My main concern is that my body, speech, mind and life should be useful to other people. So long as space remains and suffering remains, I remain. My daily prayer is the source of my inner strength. This institution of Dalai Lama, I half-jokingly, half-seriously say, has lasted six to seven hundred years should cease with the 14th with grace. If the 15th Dalai Lama turns out to be naughty as the sixth then the institution will cease in disgrace. The institution could voluntarily and democratically cease with the 14th Dalai Lama being quite famous (he laughs).
没有。正式的还没有开始。由于达赖喇嘛机制与蒙古密切相关，所以蒙古人民应该参与其中。我认为应该有一个国际佛教会议包括喜马拉雅人和其他佛教国家来参与决定这一件事。我关心的是"我的身体、语言、思想和生命应该有益于他人”。所以只要时空存在、苦难存在，我便在。我的每日祈愿是我内心力量的源泉。我半开玩笑地说：达赖喇嘛转世制度已经持续了六、七百年，应该在第十四世上优雅的停止。如果第十五世达赖喇嘛像第六世那样顽皮的话，那么这个制度将会不优雅的停止。这个制度可以自愿和民主地停止在相当著名的第十四世达赖喇嘛上（他笑）。

Oh yes. Like Germany and France after centuries of fighting came together after second World War to form European Union on shared common values, we also want to be part of Peoples Republic of China provided the Tibetan culture, language, knowledge and environment are protected. We get more economic benefit for material development as China is rich economically but spiritually we can help million of Chinese Buddhists. This is mutually beneficial. Historically, Tibet has never been part of China and this even some Chinese historians admit. But past is past, we have to live harmoniously and happily together rather than talk in terms of our nation and their nation. People ask me about the future of India and China relations. I say that neither India nor China has the capability to destroy each other. They have to live happily side by side with minor irritants. Ultimately, Hindi-Chini bhai bhai should be the principle. One must remember that there are around 400 million Chinese Buddhists who are inspired by Tibetan Buddhism, which in turn derives majority of its strength from the Nalanda traditions.
哦，是的，就像德国和法国经过几个世纪的战争后，在二战后形成了欧盟，成为了一体，有了互惠互利的共同价值观。如果西藏的文化、语言、知识和环境得到保护，我们也希望成为中国的一部分。随着中国的物质发展，我们获得了更多的经济利益，但在精神上我们可以帮助数百万的中国佛教徒，这是互利的。从历史上看，西藏从未成为中国的一部分，甚至一些中国历史学家也承认。但过去已经过去，我们必须和睦相处、幸福地共同生活，而不是谈论我们的国家和他们的国家。人们问我关于印度和中国关系的未来。我说印度和中国都没有能力相互摧毁。他们必须快乐的相邻生活，少些冲突。最终，Hindi-Chini bhai bhai应该是原则。人们必须记住，大约有4亿中国佛教徒受到藏传佛教的启发，而后者从那烂陀传统中汲取了大部分力量。

No. As he is the head of elected political leadership, all decision-making is in his hand. I have never tried to control the political leadership. But in the meantime, he believes me and trusts me. There are some small rumours.
不。由于他是当选政治领导人，所有的决策都掌握在他手中。我从未试图控制政治领导层。但与此同时，他相信我并信任我。有一些小谣言。

That I don’t know. Most probably, I think he will return. I recently had discussions with the Ministry of External Affairs and told them that it is between the government of India and Ogyen to decide. I have no problems. It is his business. Not an important matter. There is no question of the Tibetan movement splintering in this context.
我不知道。最有可能的是，我认为他会回来。我最近与外交部进行了讨论，并告诉他们由印度政府和邬金来决定。我没有问题。这是他的事。不重要的事情。在这种背景下，西藏运动不存在分裂的问题。

Yes. Sure. As far (back) as 1954, I expressed my desire to Chinese government to visit Wutai Shan, the home of 13th Dalai Lama. I was told that there was no road. I still have that desire but it is up to the Chinese government. Once a high Tibetan lama wanted to go to Bodh Gaya but his disciple said that the real Bodh Gaya is in your heart. Historically, the Wutai Shan is seat of Deva of wisdom. Whether I am there physically or not, that wisdom from the Deva is already in my brain….very sharp.
是。当然。远在1954年，我向中国政府表达了想访问十三世达赖喇嘛故乡五台山的愿望。我被告知没有路。我仍然有这种愿望，但这取决于中国政府。一位高级藏族喇嘛想要去菩提伽耶，但他的弟子说真正的菩提伽耶在你心中。历史上，五台山是智慧文殊的所在地。无论我的身体是否还在，文殊的智慧已经在我的脑海中......非常突出。

After we decided not to seek independence from China in 1974, Chinese leader Deng Xiaoping decided to have a direct contact with us through my elder brother and the dialogue started in 1979. We sent four fact finding missions to Tibet from 1979 but the dialogue ceased with the death of Deng in 1997. The official dialogue again started under President Jiang Zemin in 2002 but ceased in June 2010. Since then there is only an informal channel open with Chinese retired officials and private businessmen coming to see me from time to time. And they have some connection with the top leader. The Chinese are not in touch with the CTA. We never used the word Tibetan Government in exile. It is the Chinese who have used this and recognized them (he laughs).
1974年我们决定不从中国寻求独立后，中国领导人邓小平通过我的哥哥与我们直接接触，并于1979年开始对话。我们从1979年开始向西藏派出四个实况调查团，但对话于邓小平1997年去世后停止了。官方对话于2002年在江泽民主席的领导下再次开始，但于2010年6月停止。此后，只有一个非正式渠道开放，中国退休官员和私人商人不时来看我。他们与最高领导人有一些联系。中国人与CTA没有联系。我们从未使用过“西藏流亡政府”这个词。是中国人用了它并认可了它（他笑了）。

I have nothing to ask from any head of state or country. I think they are afraid of the Chinese reaction. I met Barack Obama as former US President and Nobel laureate as also late President George Bush Senior. My visit to Sri Lanka was cancelled at the last moment. I have not visited Thailand since it established diplomatic relations with China. I am never allowed into Buddhist countries because I am a Buddhist (he laughs) except Japan.
我对任何国家或地区的元首没有任何要求。我想他们害怕中国的反应。我见过美国前总统奥巴马、诺贝尔奖获得者，也见过已故美国前总统乔治布什等。我对斯里兰卡的访问在最后一刻被取消了。自从泰国与中国建交以来，我也没有去过泰国。我从未被允许进入佛教国家，因为我是佛教徒（他笑），除了日本。

No because of my physical condition. Normally, I used to go to the US annually for medical check-up. One Indian doctor found traces of prostrate cancer at the Mayo Clinic in USA. A team of 10 doctors discussed and ruled out surgery due to my age and side effects. Instead, I got radiation and have been completely cured of the disease. I have not travelled to US in the past two years as it is too far and I cannot handle too much physical exertion. So instead of going to the US for treatment, I go to a private hospital in Delhi.
没有，因为我的身体状况。通常，我每年都去美国做体检。一位印度医生在美国梅奥诊所发现了前列腺癌的痕迹。一个由10名医生组成的小组讨论并排除了手术，因为我的年龄和副作用。代替地，我做了放疗，并且已经完全治愈了疾病。我过去两年没去过美国，因为太远了，而且我不能承受太多的体力活动。所以我没有去美国接受治疗，而是去了德里的一家私人医院。

US President Donald Trump has just signed “ The Reciprocal Access to Tibet Act 2018”, which allows the Tibetans to return to their homeland or else the Chinese officials stopping them face sanctions. What is your reaction to this?
美国总统唐纳德特朗普刚签署了“2018年西藏互惠准入法”，允许藏人返回家园，否则阻止他们的中国官员将面临制裁。你对此有何反应？

The present president of the greatest democratic nation is little bit unpredictable. So I am in no position to comment on this as I do not know enough. But both the US houses have been strong supporters of Tibet over the decades and so has been the American government. American people love Tibet.
这个最伟大的民主国家的现任总统有点不可预测。所以我无法对此发表评论，因为我不够了解。但几十年来美国的议会都是西藏的坚定支持者，美国政府也是如此。美国人民热爱西藏。

The Indian government tried to avoid any obstacle to their relations with China. That is understandable. That is OK. I was not unhappy. Not much. Nothing. Basically, our relations with India are centuries old since a Nalanda master introduced Buddha Dharma in Sanskrit tradition in the 8th century. My body is Tibetan but spiritually and mentally I am an Indian. Today 10,000 monks and now nuns are studying in Nalanda Buddhist traditions with total freedom and not under any restricted environment in Tibet.
印度政府试图避免与中国关系的任何障碍，这是可以理解的。那没问题。我没有不开心，不多，或者没有。基本上，我们与印度的关系已有几个世纪的历史，自从那烂陀大师在8世纪以梵文传播佛法。我的身体是藏人，但在精神上和思想上我是印度人。今天，10,000名僧尼正在那烂陀传统中自由地学习，而不是在西藏受限制的环境中。

India is the only place where modern education meets ancient knowledge, which is needed to tackle emotions. I am committed to reviewing the ancient Indian knowledge to tackle emotions. For these things freedom is very important. My return to Tibet is of no use if there is no freedom. I prefer this country and this freedom and then I am the longest guest of India.
印度是现代教育与古代知识相遇的唯一场所，这是解决情感所必需的。我致力于回顾古代印度知识来解决情感问题。对于这些事情，自由是非常重要的。如果没有自由，我回西藏是没有用的。我更喜欢这个国家和这个自由，然后我是印度最长的客人。

Bamboo评论：讨论大宝是不是十六世噶玛巴的转世根本没意义，因为就算十六世噶玛巴又活过来，Bamboo都懒得去理会他。论证大宝是不是十六世的转世，就跟论证“钻石”是不是属于“水晶”一样的有点值钱的宝石一样“无语”！
另外达赖喇嘛说大宝会回来印度，Bamboo认为也是。因为离了印度和中国这两个佛教，尤其是藏传佛教的大本营，弘扬什么佛法，都跟鱼儿离了水一样。所以Bamboo觉得大宝还是扔了那张不知道是不是10万美金买来的多米尼克护照吧！因为中国和印度这两个没有法律的国家都不会给他签证的。所以Bamboo觉得要不还是拿着难民证先回印度，然后光明正大的直接从印中边境一步步走回西藏得了。只要不住宾馆、不坐汽车、飞机，不要什么保镖、行、住、坐、卧都跟佛陀一样，在大马路上、在树下，吃饭要么“捡垃圾”要么“乞食”，当然有时也可以花钱买。那么不管是中国政府、还是印度 政府，都限制不了你的自由。因为就像Bamboo这样只办了一个小小网站的人，警察尚且都不敢穿着制服、大庭广众的来声讨Bamboo，那像大宝这样的国际大名人，国保（或者说国家安全部门）这个只能躲在阴暗的角落里的反人类机构就根本不敢在众目睽睽之下把他怎么滴~